Curse

IlikeGW · Nov 22, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

[2. It's instantaneous. Yes, it matters if the gold all comes into the game all at once or over a long period of time, because everyone would get their gold in one day. That would overnight change the buying power of every player in the game, and would therefore alter prices at traders, prices that players sell materials at, even prices that player sell high end weapons for.

Nope, you're wrong. First of all 60k is NOT changing the buying power. 1 set of 15k armor costs more than 60k with materials. 1 high end weapon costs more than 60k or it's not really high end. High end is 100k+ecto. Material prices would barely shrug. Guild War's economy isn't real. There's almost no necessity and lots of low income opportunity (collector item, dirt cheap greens and golds, end game reward, tomes, faction) not to mention the game itself throws cash at you if you pick up all your drops and merch them, PLUS it throws the materials at you. Whatever numbers Anet looked at to determine their "economy" hurts over something like this, they've certainly never said that billions being generated on zaishen keys and ecto is a problem. Ridiculous.

garethporlest18 · Nov 22, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

Nope, you're wrong. First of all 60k is NOT changing the buying power. 1 set of 15k armor costs more than 60k with materials. 1 high end weapon costs more than 60k or it's not really high end. High end is 100k+ecto. Material prices would barely shrug. Guild War's economy isn't real. There's almost no necessity and lots of low income opportunity (collector item, dirt cheap greens and golds, end game reward, tomes, faction) not to mention the game itself throws cash at you if you pick up all your drops and merch them, PLUS it throws the materials at you. Whatever numbers Anet looked at to determine their "economy" hurts over something like this, they've certainly never said that billions being generated on zaishen keys and ecto is a problem. Ridiculous.

Well it wouldn't be 60k, it'd be more like 400k+ For nearly every person. That's around 200-300 million GW gold in 1 day. Personally I don't see what that would do, I don't think it would have a negative effect. I don't think many people would buy something that would effect the economy.

Also, the money made from monthly Zaishen Keys is under 500 million since they started giving them out monthly. You cannot say it's more because that would be a silly thing to say, not everyone in Guild Wars knows what the Xulani is, not everyone sells their keys, most people get shit drops out of the chest that go to the merchant. Now if you meant all Zaishen Keys made, you would be a little closer to 1 billion.

As for ecto, if you're talking about Shadow Form farm, when it first came out I'd be inclined to agree with you, but as of now SF doesn't make ecto anywhere near as good as it used to, so it's really just not a problem now. If you're talking about ecto gotten in all forms, including power trading, well then yeah maybe it's in the billions range. But that's Anet's fault for being silly and allowing there to be mini pets (which are completely and utterly useless btw, besides what they might add in GW 2) that cost more than 5000 ecto.

SniperF0x · Nov 22, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

60K per completion isn't that much. Considering that people played long for that, and that gold would've already been in the economy if the books where there already. ( although not in a spike ) I find it hilarious that they care about such a minor thing when there are much larger problems for the nearly non-existant economy. Such as a player base obsessed with farming and grinding. Now thats an issue worth adressing. Not removing a reward for doing missions.

DreamWind · Nov 22, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Sigh...
1. It's a guaranteed 60k, multiplied by the number of characters who have finished the chapter.

Its STILL a guaranteed 60k. The only difference is you have to do the missions over again rather than getting it for what you previously did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

2. It's instantaneous. Yes, it matters if the gold all comes into the game all at once or over a long period of time, because everyone would get their gold in one day. That would overnight change the buying power of every player in the game, and would therefore alter prices at traders, prices that players sell materials at, even prices that player sell high end weapons for.

I don't see how changing the buying power overnight is worse than changing the buying power over time. You still end up with the same result.

Besides, I'm not even convinced it changes the buying power. By giving us the ability to get 60k (no matter when or how we get it) it still gives the general player more money thus keeping the buying power mostly the same. Farming is what causes the most economy fluctuation (other than major changes to the system like inscriptions or loot scaling).

So it is very very unlikely that it would significantly change the buying power in the big picture. I'm also not convinced on the 400k number for most players. Most people I know went through every mission with their main character and that was it (even less people on hard mode). The thing that changes the buying power most is when an effective and consistent method of income is in the game such as shadowform farming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

3. Most importantly: it's money for nothing. From now on, if you max a book, you are doing it using time that you could have spent farming. Time spent doing missions is still less profitable than time spent farming (though less so now), so you're putting less money into the game than you would have otherwise. In contrast, if we could just fill up a couple books and get the rewards instantly, we'd be getting paid for effectively doing nothing.

Its money for missions you already did...but that argument was made in the other thread and not worth bringing up here. What you say here really doesn't make much sense. We know that farming still brings more money into the game than missions. You are basically saying since people are spending time doing something less profitable, it is better for the economy. Doesn't that mean farming is the bigger problem and the money from the missions is much less of a problem? The people who want the most money can still get the most money.

Age · Nov 22, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

I would say it is no more than just study and I don't see it happening if this was the case.I wouldn't of made up these books which have no relevance to the game what so ever story line or just gaining XP.The premise of the game is to develope a char for competive play not for this.

I would personally like to see the books gone as I already trashed 2 of my MoX books already and probably won't do the quests even for the 10K.I will probably will be trashing more as my space is getting very limited(sp).

Skyy High · Nov 22, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

Nope, you're wrong. First of all 60k is NOT changing the buying power. 1 set of 15k armor costs more than 60k with materials. 1 high end weapon costs more than 60k or it's not really high end. High end is 100k+ecto. Material prices would barely shrug. Guild War's economy isn't real. There's almost no necessity and lots of low income opportunity (collector item, dirt cheap greens and golds, end game reward, tomes, faction) not to mention the game itself throws cash at you if you pick up all your drops and merch them, PLUS it throws the materials at you. Whatever numbers Anet looked at to determine their "economy" hurts over something like this, they've certainly never said that billions being generated on zaishen keys and ecto is a problem. Ridiculous.

First off, as gareth said, it's 60k multiplied by the number of characters you play. That's a significant sum, considering that most players have less than 20k in their storage or something like that. Zaishen keys and ectos do not "generate" any money, at all, they merely move money from those who farm for drops to those who farm ectos or sell zkeys. I make basically all my money from merching drops, but I've never gotten 480k instantaneously from merching junk.

Oh, and if the economy doesn't matter, then you shouldn't care about not getting "worthless" gold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamwind

Its STILL a guaranteed 60k. The only difference is you have to do the missions over again rather than getting it for what you previously did.

No, it's not, because all players will not necessarily play the missions over again, certainly not once per character they have. In any case, that's all potential future money, not present right now.

Quote:

I don't see how changing the buying power overnight is worse than changing the buying power over time. You still end up with the same result.

Because a sudden change in prices can significantly screw over large numbers of people, while making a few players exceedingly wealthy. Every time the economy changes quickly, whether on ectos or items such as voltaic spears, we have seen that happen.

Quote:

Besides, I'm not even convinced it changes the buying power. By giving us the ability to get 60k (no matter when or how we get it) it still gives the general player more money thus keeping the buying power mostly the same. Farming is what causes the most economy fluctuation (other than major changes to the system like inscriptions or loot scaling).

Any player can make more than 60k in the same amount of time they spend filling in a full book, if they want to farm. Adding books has not in any way increased the player base's ability to generate gold; it may have, in fact, decreased it, as now players will be farming books for the gold and title points instead of just farming for gold.

Quote:

Its money for missions you already did...but that argument was made in the other thread and not worth bringing up here. What you say here really doesn't make much sense. We know that farming still brings more money into the game than missions. You are basically saying since people are spending time doing something less profitable, it is better for the economy. Doesn't that mean farming is the bigger problem and the money from the missions is much less of a problem? The people who want the most money can still get the most money.

You've almost have it, but your lack of appreciation for how much a large, instantaneous addition of gold into the system can change the economy is skewing your conclusions. Farming is going to happen, and I really can't see how it could be stopped, or why it needs to be. People who want to earn money the fastest will always earn it faster than a normal player; loot scaling toned down farming's efficiency to be somewhat less ridiculous, and I don't have a problem with it now. The fact that ecto prices really only change after large updates that significantly alter farming builds (or the buying power of most players) is proof that the continuous influx of gold from farming is not really that big of a problem. The fact that people have been farming since the game started, yet you can still buy most weapons for under 5-10k, is more proof.

Farming doesn't really damage the economy, and these books will push even less gold into the economy than farming could do, so they're perfectly fine. The issue comes when you dump huge quantities of gold, hundreds of millions, even potentially billions, into the system all at once. ANet specifically said in their dev release that their was a noticeable change when they allowed everyone to earn 10k per character relatively quickly with the MOX quest. Letting us fill books retroactively would have constituted an even greater quantity of gold, in a shorter period of time.

Amy Awien · Nov 22, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Where did you people get the 60k figure from? It is 18k (20 - expenses) for completion of all three chapters. Though it can be expected that players finish normal mode for multiple characters, everyone doing so in Hard mode is not very likely.

upier · Nov 22, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Where did you people get the 60k figure from? It is 18k (20 - expenses) for completion of all three chapters. Though it can be expected that players finish normal mode for multiple characters, everyone doing so in Hard mode is not very likely.

1st post of this thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dev Update

We monitor the economy closely and found a significant fluctuation in how much gold players had on average after the addition of the M.O.X. quests (which give a 10 platinum reward). If we allowed players to purchase those pages, any character that had completed all three campaigns in Normal Mode would be receiving 18 platinum and 42,750 gold for Hard Mode completion for a grand total of 60,750 gold. In light of how much the economy was affected by just 10 platinum, the inflation caused by giving out 60 platinum per character was too significant for us to allow.

Gregslot · Nov 22, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Some people do not know what CR is.
Its not part of Regina's work to babysitt you, if Gaile did, well... im pretty sure Gaile did not recived for that.

Get real people.

fenix · Nov 23, 2008, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

Some people do not know what CR is.
Its not part of Regina's work to babysitt you, if Gaile did, well... im pretty sure Gaile did not recived for that.

Get real people.

It seems you are ALSO one of those people who do not know. Sure, Regina's job isn't to babysit, but she's SURE doing her job wrong at the moment.

Ate of DK · Nov 23, 2008, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

First off, as gareth said, it's 60k multiplied by the number of characters you play. That's a significant sum, considering that most players have less than 20k in their storage or something like that. Zaishen keys and ectos do not "generate" any money, at all, they merely move money from those who farm for drops to those who farm ectos or sell zkeys. I make basically all my money from merching drops, but I've never gotten 480k instantaneously from merching junk.

Oh, and if the economy doesn't matter, then you shouldn't care about not getting "worthless" gold.

A small mistake: golden items drop from the Zaishen Chest. When these items are sold to the merchant they create gold coins.

Parson Brown · Nov 23, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

Solution to book storage...make it a damn quest. One that just has "Complete mission XX in NM/HM" as an objective. Once you complete all the objectives, quest done, turn it in, make it repeatable... wasn't that easy?

Someone at A-Net please hire this guy!

Why didn't I think of this!?!

Love the idea, just like the main EotN quest chain, but with a book-type reward.

Daenara · Nov 23, 2008, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parson Brown

Someone at A-Net please hire this guy!

Why didn't I think of this!?!

Love the idea, just like the main EotN quest chain, but with a book-type reward.

The benefit of books is that you can hand them in after completing some of the quests. That way you're not stuck on some of the harder missions like eternal grove if you don't have a guild/friends.

Traveller · Nov 23, 2008, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Those people who have the Guardian title and would get more money probably have so much gold on their account anyway that a mere 40k wouldn't feel anywhere. And for those with Normal mode Protector, heck, what's 20k, one piece of elite armor? Hardly economy-breaking. Probably been said already, but considering that SF is still alive and kicking, their worries about the economy seem very superficial.

Kashrlyyk · Nov 23, 2008, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daenara

The benefit of books is that you can hand them in after completing some of the quests. That way you're not stuck on some of the harder missions like eternal grove if you don't have a guild/friends.

When comes to the rewards all what the books do is save a variable, e.g. EotN_missions_done=6. If the value is high enough, you get the appropriate reward. That should be possible to do for a quest too.

garethporlest18 · Nov 23, 2008, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traveller

Those people who have the Guardian title and would get more money probably have so much gold on their account anyway that a mere 40k wouldn't feel anywhere. And for those with Normal mode Protector, heck, what's 20k, one piece of elite armor? Hardly economy-breaking. Probably been said already, but considering that SF is still alive and kicking, their worries about the economy seem very superficial.

For the last go red engine time, SF IS NOT WRECKING THE ECONOMY ANY LONGER. That 1 month ecto farming interval was the only time. It's not doing any more damage than 55 has in the past, than Ettin farming for runes has in the past, then 600/smite is doing now. It's not SF, stop blaming SF.

tsparky · Nov 23, 2008, 11:35 AM // 11:35

personally for me it is the missed oppitunity of turning in books in hm/nm for gardian/protector / vanq for the luxson/kurzic faction value that is more dissapointing the fact i miss out on 60k does not mean jack missed faction to the title means more.

maybe a one time only token for each character that have allready done these titles before the introduction of the books, which in turn can be traded with the luxson or kurzic bard to get your faction reward that having a completed book would have given you.

Token customised to char therefore only that account gets faction reward not plat reward therefore GW economy will not get afftected at all.

Abedeus · Nov 23, 2008, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

For the last go red engine time, SF IS NOT WRECKING THE ECONOMY ANY LONGER. That 1 month ecto farming interval was the only time. It's not doing any more damage than 55 has in the past, than Ettin farming for runes has in the past, then 600/smite is doing now. It's not SF, stop blaming SF.

Because permament 95% invincibility + large amounts of damage OR total invincibility (A/E or A/Me with a self-heal) and weak damage OR just the best tank ever isn't OP.

Just FYI, A/E can remain invincible with one monk for an eternity. The only thing that can possibly harm him is Signet of Humility, but that's the death of all tanks.

The only thing that got nerfed was E/A. A/E's still work, they have only a bit less damage and energy than E/A.

I still see no reason not to give us JUST FACTION, which is a lot.

Fril Estelin · Nov 23, 2008, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I still see no reason not to give us JUST FACTION, which is a lot.

Because it's unfair to those that want the money.

Peter Acid Eater · Nov 23, 2008, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Retroactive Faction/Reputation: If you have been playing this game for any decent amount of time then you shouldn't need retroactive Faction/Reputation. You should be able to get R8 Sunspear and R5 (at least) Lightbringer just by playing through the campaign in NM. I play VERY casually and I'm near max on Lightbringer and and Sunspear without those books. It's not hard to do. If getting those points is so important to you, then do the damn books and get it. Here's a novelty idea: EARN IT.

I find it interesting that people are bitching about title-maxing not being made easier. Shouldn't maxing these titles take at least some effort? Besides, Faction title is account-based, so there's no need to get it on every character. Sunspear and Lightbringer (which are character-based) are easy enough to max already. With the books you now have another route, making maxing them even easier.

Not wanting gold from but getting retroactive Faction/Reputation from Storybooks seems like a fair trade-off, but separating the two would be difficult considering that the gold reward is intrinsically linked to the books, whether you/I/we like it or not. What's done is done, accept it and move on. There's no need to beat this horse forever.

Server Space: Since none of use knows exactly how much server space is currently being used, how much they have available and so on, your speculation means NOTHING. You have no clue and no insight on ANet's server state, making your observations completely worthless. If you think "well, they should have enough money to buy more," keep in mind that they are also working on GW2 and will need a ton of server space for that too.

Book Space: You know what would be grand? A bookbag. Similar to how the Black Moa Chick Incubator Kit worked, there are 7 slots. 1 for each book. Yes, it will still take up inventory space, but it will only be 1 slot and allow you to store other Storybooks. I don't know if they'd be able to give credit for missions when the books are still in your bookbag, so you might have to remove the relevant Storybook from your bookbag when doing the mission. That means 2 slots, but it's still better than 7. I don't know if personal inventory server space has the same issues as Xunlai Storage, but if not then this could be a viable alternative to a Book Storage in your Xunlai

Shadow Form: 55 Monk. Farming has been around for a long time. Whining about one while ignoring all the others is ignorant. If there is an area being heavily exploited by SF farming (like Chaos Plains was) then ANet can address that in other ways that does not screw over everyone who likes to farm with sins.

Conclusion: I'm not trying to talk down to anyone or flame, but people need to look at things objectively, reasonably and take a moment to think of things outside of just themselves. In the end, it's just titles and the ones being griped about aren't even that hard to max. Is it really that big of a deal that it will take 2-3 months to max your Faction title instead of right away? If so, that's rather petty, IMO.